Since Tuesday a friend and I have exchanged over the Trumpists. Here is the full, unexpurgated exchange starting with his first email:
If the black Man president had done this would we have armed insurrection in USA?
BH: He'd have been assassinated.
Friend: Yeah i truly think that cuckservative works here for Le grand Orange
btw its insane i talk to trump supporters and they are saying "oh well he walked it back"
WTF are they talking about? he walked nothing back.
when he said he could kill someone on 5th avenue and his voters would vote for him he was spot on
BH: Yeah, this latest was a little more than the others but it was just the latest and it has already been doused. They know the 2016 election was a Russian rigged democratic coup. They got America 2.0 and they know: the November 2018 elections are rigged; Trump will not be impeached and will win a rigged election in 2020. It has been a principle of Russian/Soviet statecraft since the October Revolution: "what's ours is ours; what's yours is negotiable." They will never give up America 2.0.
Friend: i am equally pessimistic about the democrats chances
half the party, like me, wants them to find candidates like Connor Lamb, millitary, ex prosecutor and the other half wants Ocasio-Cortez, a self described socialist sanders acolyte who wants to abolish ICE
and god help us if we dont just pick an old white guy who is a centrist in the next election. if we go kamala harris or elizabeth warren we will get smoked
i think that the deficit spending fueled boom is what I think will sink the democrats in 2010
do you really think that it does not matter who the dems nominate?
BH: Yes to first and second and with voter suppression and perhaps with actual voting machine tampering.
On second paragraph, "They don't care" (Olivia Nuzzi), about specific issues, even involving their pocket book. This is a personality cult (Corker) as with Putin, a cultural war. "Whatever Trump says that's what I'm for" (two Trumpists who the Senator from Canada confronted in Indiana).
Last paragraph: Yes, it does not matter. Beyond a reasonable doubt I believe it is not matter. The fix is in, the cake is baked.
Friend: so we no longer live in a democracy?
thats pretty fucking grim
BH: No, we do! It is a Russian-styled democracy. The government puts its finger on the scale, sometimes a couple fingers.
BH: I think you understand what I am saying in this chain because you know me but my two answers, "It doesn't matter who Dems nominate"..."The fix is in" and "No, we still have a democracy," those are contradictory.
I have no evidence that vote tallies were changed or ballots altered. I believe that some were but I know of no evidence that they were. I believe b.r.d. that Trump got about the number of votes he did and HRC did likewise. The Russians targeted swings states with BOTH their disinformation campaigns and attempts to break into state voting systems. The evidence is b.r.d. that the Russians were trying to break into the voting systems to "fix" the vote, either by preemptive disqualification or remote ballot box stuffing with Trump votes. Did they succeed is the only question and it only matters in the swing states.
So, the state of the case is this: (1) the Russians tried to fix the election and, (2) they succeeded in their ultimate goal of electing Trump and, (3) there is no evidence that they succeeded in their attempts to actually alter votes.
Hoo-doggie! I wouldn't want to be the defense attorney in that murder case! "Yeah, my guy shot to kill him, the victim was killed by a gunshot but my guy's bullet didn't hit him."
That is the establishment GOP position. That is also the position of some people on the JFK assassination. It was someone else, on the "grassy knoll," or "Umbrella man." Of course, it is possible. And if the possible were proven true b.r.d., would the prosecutor dismiss the case? Of course not! You've got transferred intent, you've got to connect three dots and the defense concedes two of them.
But the prosecution bears the burden and I accept the absence of evidence. I still believe b.r.d. that Trump will not be impeached; that the GOP will retain either the House or Senate and to a standard of more probable than not both houses, and; standard both houses, that Trump will be reelected in 2020--because the Russians worked with the material, the American electorate, that they were given--already center-right!, with crucial electoral votes weighted in favor of the hardest right states!, with a racist nationalism already latent! That is very fertile ground for the race-based nationalism articulated by Putin in an important 2015 speech. Putin's speech was both the dog whistle to Brexiteers in Britain and for Trumpists in the colonies, and it worked in both countries!. That speech changed attitudes in Britain and here about Putin and Russia. The speech was also the template for the disinformation campaign. That low hanging fruit still needed to be picked with skill and subtlety and man it was. The Russians didn't send millions of Rooskis over here to register and vote for Trump. They just had to "get the message out" to their American constituents.
So as I see it, and I see it b.r.d., for the Russians this is, "Oh, 2020? Same election thing as in '16? K, been there, done that, bought the MAGA t-shirt. Can do! Can we run Orange BlimpClown again or no? We can! We no have to run Roy Moore?! We run Trump again!" The pump is primed, the ground not only fertile, not only seeded, but millions of hideous, mutant, orange low hanging fruit bearing things have shoosted through the soil and are ready for another harvest.
Yes, it's grim.
Friend: yeah its grim
so basically your thesis is that racism is the key and that no matter what muller says the racist american electorate will not care and just re-elect him no matter what? even if the economy tanks which surely it must by 2020/
you may be right. I read the polls on how many GOP members think this is all russia stuff is meaningless and it frightens me. I do love to give shit to the cops who are all trumpists. i love to say, remember how mad you got when that black president chastised that boston cop for arresting a black man? you said it showed he hated cops and FBI agents etc? now the prez dumps on you guys every day and you all love him. couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the last president was black? naaah of course not.
i will say this, if the bough breaks and mueller truly finds something really really BRD bad and it somehow crosses the line in the mind of the people, this could hurt the GOP for a long time. i mean all these assholes out there defending him will be screwed if it is clear that they were wrong. kind of amazed at how few of them are fence sitting to see what happens.
whole thing truly depresses me. Right now I feel like everything in our country is for sale and crooked--probably hightened by the fact that all i do at work is look at people trying to steal from the government but the more i read the more it seems like the whole thing is just rotten. Politics is rotten to the core, elections are gerrymandered, governments are bought and run by lobbyists. Rich have every advantage, make all the rules and have used this election to make sure that they will continue to rule and fuck over the middle class and lower classes forever
and that the appeal to racism seems to outweigh the ass raping that GOP policies are giving to their own blue collar supporters-- wrecking obamacare, destroying unions, endlessly cutting the salaries and pensions of middle class government workers like teachers, cops and fireman, keeping wages low, public education underfunded etc
geez the two of us could have a podcast
we could call it "the suicide hour"
BH: -Yes, to racist nationalism.
-The Mueller investigation is rigged--not deliberately but he is not charged with determining if the conspiracy effected the election results! Fancy that. He's brief is to investigate Russian interference in the election but not determine if the outcome was effected!
-"No matter what Mueller does, it doesn't matter": That is nearly so as my opinion. GOP approval of Trump: 90%; GOP approval of Mueller investigation 41%.
-If something really, REALLY bad turns up: That is my "nearly so" modifier. The reaction to Helsinki, to Trump's wobbly statements after Helsinki, did shake Trumpists. Like Gingrich, like Fox. Now, the Cohen tapes. Fox is key. That's where they all get their news. If the Fox bulwark starts to crumble Trumpists would be left with Trump's twitter account and I don't know if that's enough to sustain him. Fox is the key.
-The Russians work with the material they have. If the economy goes into depression their material has changed. I don't have a firm belief on how that would effect 2020. Would the right analogy be to the former U.S. in 1932 or to the Russian electorate and the Putin economy? The Russian people are hurtin' for certain but that hasn't hurt Poot-poot.
-On your last two paragraphs: "My country right or wrong." Nationalism is state-of-the-art insulation for authoritarians. There are plenty of people, not just stupid white people, all over the world who would rather be the king of Swaziland than a lamp post in London. The Brits leave India, Pakistan breaks away and Gandhi is assassinated. "Yeah! Indian nationalism! We're free!" Arright man, good for you. Keep in touch.
BH: On your last two paragraphs again: Democracy was the gold standard to the legitimation question for every regime, royal, red, or black. If the regime comes to power via democracy, stamp "APPROVED!"
Democracy as legitimization gold standard is process-centered, not results-centered so as long as the pipes are nice and shiny it does not matter that shit comes out. That seems fucked up; it makes democracy look like a fool's gold standard.
Other kinds of regimes pushed back. They lost that "battle of ideas." But they had a point! So, Nazi Germany gets stamped APPROVED! Maoist China does not but goddamn you will find no China scholar anywhere in Creation who will say that Mao Zedong did not have overwhelming popular support. Mao would have won an absolutely free election hands down, it would not have been close.
America 2.0 is a legitimation crisis for the democracy legitimation gold standard throughout the world and Putin is winning that battle of ideas. He has successfully pointed out that democracies are not immune from Chaos, in fact, democracies can produce Chaos, like shit coming out of the shiny pipes. Putin first articulated this in a press conference on Iraq with Dubya. Dubya had said something like "We're going to bring democracy to Iraq!" Putin laughed and said something like, "If this is democracy, you can keep it." He was so fucking pissed at Bush43 over Georgia, over Ukraine--ran up to Condi Rice when she had mentioned something about Ukraine in Europe and said "Ukraine is ours!" Putin's strong man, quasi-democratic nationalism turned China, the Chinese character for Chaos is the politically dirtiest word in the language; Putin turned China at the U.N. from American-oriented to Russian-oriented. He turned the Brits! Got 'em to leave Europe. Became the bulwark of white Christian nationalism in Russia, in Britain, in the colonies. Raising Trumpism here and getting Trump elected is Putin saying, "How do you like democracy now?"
If the black Man president had done this would we have armed insurrection in USA?
BH: He'd have been assassinated.
Friend: Yeah i truly think that cuckservative works here for Le grand Orange
btw its insane i talk to trump supporters and they are saying "oh well he walked it back"
WTF are they talking about? he walked nothing back.
when he said he could kill someone on 5th avenue and his voters would vote for him he was spot on
BH: Yeah, this latest was a little more than the others but it was just the latest and it has already been doused. They know the 2016 election was a Russian rigged democratic coup. They got America 2.0 and they know: the November 2018 elections are rigged; Trump will not be impeached and will win a rigged election in 2020. It has been a principle of Russian/Soviet statecraft since the October Revolution: "what's ours is ours; what's yours is negotiable." They will never give up America 2.0.
Friend: i am equally pessimistic about the democrats chances
half the party, like me, wants them to find candidates like Connor Lamb, millitary, ex prosecutor and the other half wants Ocasio-Cortez, a self described socialist sanders acolyte who wants to abolish ICE
and god help us if we dont just pick an old white guy who is a centrist in the next election. if we go kamala harris or elizabeth warren we will get smoked
BH: I really believe my America 2.0 rhetoric. I don't think the old paradigm of the American electorate, center-right, has much relevance. And so I really don't think it matters if the Demos try to put up a nominee who matches or strays far left from the old center-right paradigm. I really believe that 9/8/16 worked a democratic coup and that the Putinists/Trumpists will not surrender power again.
Friend: do you mean that the russians will rig the vote with cyber warfare? influence the electorate as they have with disinfomration?
i think that the deficit spending fueled boom is what I think will sink the democrats in 2010
do you really think that it does not matter who the dems nominate?
BH: Yes to first and second and with voter suppression and perhaps with actual voting machine tampering.
On second paragraph, "They don't care" (Olivia Nuzzi), about specific issues, even involving their pocket book. This is a personality cult (Corker) as with Putin, a cultural war. "Whatever Trump says that's what I'm for" (two Trumpists who the Senator from Canada confronted in Indiana).
Last paragraph: Yes, it does not matter. Beyond a reasonable doubt I believe it is not matter. The fix is in, the cake is baked.
Friend: so we no longer live in a democracy?
thats pretty fucking grim
BH: No, we do! It is a Russian-styled democracy. The government puts its finger on the scale, sometimes a couple fingers.
BH: I think you understand what I am saying in this chain because you know me but my two answers, "It doesn't matter who Dems nominate"..."The fix is in" and "No, we still have a democracy," those are contradictory.
I have no evidence that vote tallies were changed or ballots altered. I believe that some were but I know of no evidence that they were. I believe b.r.d. that Trump got about the number of votes he did and HRC did likewise. The Russians targeted swings states with BOTH their disinformation campaigns and attempts to break into state voting systems. The evidence is b.r.d. that the Russians were trying to break into the voting systems to "fix" the vote, either by preemptive disqualification or remote ballot box stuffing with Trump votes. Did they succeed is the only question and it only matters in the swing states.
So, the state of the case is this: (1) the Russians tried to fix the election and, (2) they succeeded in their ultimate goal of electing Trump and, (3) there is no evidence that they succeeded in their attempts to actually alter votes.
Hoo-doggie! I wouldn't want to be the defense attorney in that murder case! "Yeah, my guy shot to kill him, the victim was killed by a gunshot but my guy's bullet didn't hit him."
That is the establishment GOP position. That is also the position of some people on the JFK assassination. It was someone else, on the "grassy knoll," or "Umbrella man." Of course, it is possible. And if the possible were proven true b.r.d., would the prosecutor dismiss the case? Of course not! You've got transferred intent, you've got to connect three dots and the defense concedes two of them.
But the prosecution bears the burden and I accept the absence of evidence. I still believe b.r.d. that Trump will not be impeached; that the GOP will retain either the House or Senate and to a standard of more probable than not both houses, and; standard both houses, that Trump will be reelected in 2020--because the Russians worked with the material, the American electorate, that they were given--already center-right!, with crucial electoral votes weighted in favor of the hardest right states!, with a racist nationalism already latent! That is very fertile ground for the race-based nationalism articulated by Putin in an important 2015 speech. Putin's speech was both the dog whistle to Brexiteers in Britain and for Trumpists in the colonies, and it worked in both countries!. That speech changed attitudes in Britain and here about Putin and Russia. The speech was also the template for the disinformation campaign. That low hanging fruit still needed to be picked with skill and subtlety and man it was. The Russians didn't send millions of Rooskis over here to register and vote for Trump. They just had to "get the message out" to their American constituents.
So as I see it, and I see it b.r.d., for the Russians this is, "Oh, 2020? Same election thing as in '16? K, been there, done that, bought the MAGA t-shirt. Can do! Can we run Orange BlimpClown again or no? We can! We no have to run Roy Moore?! We run Trump again!" The pump is primed, the ground not only fertile, not only seeded, but millions of hideous, mutant, orange low hanging fruit bearing things have shoosted through the soil and are ready for another harvest.
Yes, it's grim.
Friend: yeah its grim
so basically your thesis is that racism is the key and that no matter what muller says the racist american electorate will not care and just re-elect him no matter what? even if the economy tanks which surely it must by 2020/
you may be right. I read the polls on how many GOP members think this is all russia stuff is meaningless and it frightens me. I do love to give shit to the cops who are all trumpists. i love to say, remember how mad you got when that black president chastised that boston cop for arresting a black man? you said it showed he hated cops and FBI agents etc? now the prez dumps on you guys every day and you all love him. couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the last president was black? naaah of course not.
i will say this, if the bough breaks and mueller truly finds something really really BRD bad and it somehow crosses the line in the mind of the people, this could hurt the GOP for a long time. i mean all these assholes out there defending him will be screwed if it is clear that they were wrong. kind of amazed at how few of them are fence sitting to see what happens.
whole thing truly depresses me. Right now I feel like everything in our country is for sale and crooked--probably hightened by the fact that all i do at work is look at people trying to steal from the government but the more i read the more it seems like the whole thing is just rotten. Politics is rotten to the core, elections are gerrymandered, governments are bought and run by lobbyists. Rich have every advantage, make all the rules and have used this election to make sure that they will continue to rule and fuck over the middle class and lower classes forever
and that the appeal to racism seems to outweigh the ass raping that GOP policies are giving to their own blue collar supporters-- wrecking obamacare, destroying unions, endlessly cutting the salaries and pensions of middle class government workers like teachers, cops and fireman, keeping wages low, public education underfunded etc
geez the two of us could have a podcast
we could call it "the suicide hour"
BH: -Yes, to racist nationalism.
-The Mueller investigation is rigged--not deliberately but he is not charged with determining if the conspiracy effected the election results! Fancy that. He's brief is to investigate Russian interference in the election but not determine if the outcome was effected!
-"No matter what Mueller does, it doesn't matter": That is nearly so as my opinion. GOP approval of Trump: 90%; GOP approval of Mueller investigation 41%.
-If something really, REALLY bad turns up: That is my "nearly so" modifier. The reaction to Helsinki, to Trump's wobbly statements after Helsinki, did shake Trumpists. Like Gingrich, like Fox. Now, the Cohen tapes. Fox is key. That's where they all get their news. If the Fox bulwark starts to crumble Trumpists would be left with Trump's twitter account and I don't know if that's enough to sustain him. Fox is the key.
-The Russians work with the material they have. If the economy goes into depression their material has changed. I don't have a firm belief on how that would effect 2020. Would the right analogy be to the former U.S. in 1932 or to the Russian electorate and the Putin economy? The Russian people are hurtin' for certain but that hasn't hurt Poot-poot.
-On your last two paragraphs: "My country right or wrong." Nationalism is state-of-the-art insulation for authoritarians. There are plenty of people, not just stupid white people, all over the world who would rather be the king of Swaziland than a lamp post in London. The Brits leave India, Pakistan breaks away and Gandhi is assassinated. "Yeah! Indian nationalism! We're free!" Arright man, good for you. Keep in touch.
BH: On your last two paragraphs again: Democracy was the gold standard to the legitimation question for every regime, royal, red, or black. If the regime comes to power via democracy, stamp "APPROVED!"
Democracy as legitimization gold standard is process-centered, not results-centered so as long as the pipes are nice and shiny it does not matter that shit comes out. That seems fucked up; it makes democracy look like a fool's gold standard.
Other kinds of regimes pushed back. They lost that "battle of ideas." But they had a point! So, Nazi Germany gets stamped APPROVED! Maoist China does not but goddamn you will find no China scholar anywhere in Creation who will say that Mao Zedong did not have overwhelming popular support. Mao would have won an absolutely free election hands down, it would not have been close.
America 2.0 is a legitimation crisis for the democracy legitimation gold standard throughout the world and Putin is winning that battle of ideas. He has successfully pointed out that democracies are not immune from Chaos, in fact, democracies can produce Chaos, like shit coming out of the shiny pipes. Putin first articulated this in a press conference on Iraq with Dubya. Dubya had said something like "We're going to bring democracy to Iraq!" Putin laughed and said something like, "If this is democracy, you can keep it." He was so fucking pissed at Bush43 over Georgia, over Ukraine--ran up to Condi Rice when she had mentioned something about Ukraine in Europe and said "Ukraine is ours!" Putin's strong man, quasi-democratic nationalism turned China, the Chinese character for Chaos is the politically dirtiest word in the language; Putin turned China at the U.N. from American-oriented to Russian-oriented. He turned the Brits! Got 'em to leave Europe. Became the bulwark of white Christian nationalism in Russia, in Britain, in the colonies. Raising Trumpism here and getting Trump elected is Putin saying, "How do you like democracy now?"
