Herein, an interview conducted by Benjamin Harris (hereinafter "Ben") with Benjamin Harris (hereinafter "Harris):
BEN: Your "Stop AIPAC" header and the first post--are you fucking schizophrenic?
HARRIS: Fuck you.
BEN: Fuck YOU!
HARRIS: FUCK YOU!
[fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck]
BEN: Man hug?
HARRIS: K
BEN: Have doubts about that thing?
HARRIS: ...No...Maybe...Little late to have doubts if I do, no? Thing's a lead-pipe cinch now...After I posted the Hamas thing the first thought that came into my head was "What's in it for us?" meaning the U.S.
BEN: ...Good question!
HARRIS: I tried to put myself in Obama's position in this interview. How would he answer that? How has he answered that?
BEN: Like, peace? No, the thing doesn't guarantee peace. How has he answered that? "It's in the national security interests of the U.S."? Probably something like that, right?
HARRIS: He must have and that's probably what he said but I really don't remember. I imagined "peace" too as his answer and then the second thought I had was, "This is Mr. Pragmatist, 'peace' is too poofy an answer...
BEN:...And the deal doesn't guarantee peace...
HARRIS: ...Right. I continued on that train of thought though, "peace" and played it out one step further and thought "Peace between whom?" Israel and Iran, obviously. He can say all he wants it's about peace between the U.S. and Iran but c'mon, Iran is not going to nuke the U.S. It's at this point in my thinking that I switched from "peace" as his answer to "national security" and from here on my argument converged on both. Iran does not and will not, even if it develops a nuclear arsenal, directly threaten the U.S., this thing is about Iran and Israel and then I started thinking, "But Israel is opposed to this; this thing is about Israel's national security and who the fuck are we to be saying what's in Israel's national security interests!"
BEN: FUCK OBAMA!
HARRIS: FUCK THE U.S.!
[fuckfuckfuckfuck]
BEN: I bet I know where you're going with this...
HARRIS:...You do. America has an interest in Israel's national security...
BEN:...We give them $1 billion a year, sell them weapons...
HARRIS:...It is a moral commitment in addition...
BEN:...Yes, it is.
HARRIS: The American people feel that very strongly, I feel that very strongly but, you see, that doesn't get us around the conundrum of "Who are we...?" In fact, since it's a moral commitment then it's a moral question, it's not "just" pragmatically adding up numbers, population, army size, military capabilities, and deciding "Eh, Israel's got nukes, it can protect itself," now that it's a moral question it's like protecting your child from danger, what wouldn't a parent do to protect his or her child?
BEN: Yep. And then you started thinking, "We shouldn't be doing this. We shouldn't have gotten ourselves into a position of making moral decisions for a mature foreign nation..."
HARRIS:...Right, and we always have! 'Member how Kissinger told Golda Meir, "They're not going to attack you. Don't preempt"?
BEN:...And then they did!...
HARRIS:...Right, our fucking intelligence was wrong, Israel relied on it, Meir didn't preempt, the Arabs did attack...
BEN:...And then this wasn't your grandfather's Arab coalition...
HARRIS:...No, it wasn't. And then Kissinger has to go to Nixon and say "The Third Temple is going under." We come to their aid, they surround the Egyptian army in Sinai and then HK tells Meier, "Arright, that's enough."
BEN: Right!
HARRIS: And then we get the Arab oil embargo.
BEN: So how exactly was all that in the U.S.' interests?
HARRIS: Exactly. Or Israel's! We fucked up, got Israel attacked, almost got her wiped out, then came to her aid but told her not to wipe out the Egyptian Third Army.
BEN: (laughing) We saved them both! Both sides should have been grateful to us!
HARRIS: (laughing) Right! Like the Dangerfield-Sinatra joke, "Yeah, Frank saved my life once.
Three guys were beatin' me up, Frank came over, said to them 'Arright, that's enough..'"
BEN: Ba-da-bum.
HARRIS: How was that cluster-fuck in Israel's national interest? It wasn't! How is such a dependent relationship in the interests of either the dependent or the guarantor? It's not! And that's really what this is, it's not an "alliance," we are the guardians for a now 66 year old ward! That's fucked up! I would be embarrassed. Israel would not have come into existence if George Marshall had had his way. Truman went against him! Recognized Israel's right to exist, for Jews to have a homeland. It was the right thing to do! We birthed that country. RIGHT thing to do, MORAL thing to do, got them on their feet with aid. But never weened them--and ourselves--off it! I can't believe that Israelis have tolerated this.
BEN: They haven't, under Netanyahu.
HARRIS:...No...No, I guess they haven't...Well...Netanyahu has opposed this, they spied on us in these negotiations, Pollard spied for them--You know we're releasing him?
BEN: Yeah, I know.
HARRIS: So, they have stepped out...Standing up..."Finally the Chinese nation can stand on its own two feet"...But that's not true. They haven't stood on their own two feet, Netanyahu still comes to the U.S. for aid, has been promised more aid once this Iran thing is done--That's why we finally agreed to release Pollard, surely.--So, we pay them to spy on us. When we concluded an arms sale with the Saudis, Netanyahu's response was "How are you going to recompense us for this?" Drove us mad; insulting thing to say. But he had a point! The Saudis are the worst, they should be wiped off the face of the planet! Why do we do that relationship?
BEN: A river runs through it. It's the "pragmatic" thing to do.
HARRIS: Yep. a river of black gold. We pay them to kill us.
BEN: The Israelis don't kill us.
HARRIS: No...No, they sure don't. They're good people. The American people are closer to the Jews of Israel than to any other people on earth.
BEN: And so we come back to the moral.
HARRIS: Yes...We will NOT let Israel be destroyed.
BEN: Deliberately.
HARRIS: Ah...Yes, deliberately. You know what Biden says Meir said to him once? Biden went over
there as a young senator, met with Meir, was troubled by Israel's vulnerability, is walking out with
Meir who notices him troubled and says, "Don't worry about us, Senator. We have no place else to
go."
BEN: FUCK!
HARRIS: Yeah...Fuck is right.
BEN: That doesn't get us out of the conundrum though. Makes it worse. "We will NOT (deliberately) let Israel be destroyed."
HARRIS: Right..."We"..."deliberately"...
BEN: On this, Netanyahu is saying, "Not your responsibility. Ours."
HARRIS: No...Or at least he's not only saying that. He's saying YOU, U.S. still have the responsibility to make sure we don't get destroyed and with this thing you have abdicated your parental responsibility. He is saying, he has said explicitly, that he will do what he has to do to protect his country's existential right, independent of the U.S. So, you're right he is saying "We are standing on our own two feet" but he's also saying, "Brother, can you lend me a crutch." But like Meir, just going around in circles now, but like Meir implied he is also saying explicitly "We can take care of ourselves."
BEN: What if they do? What if Netanyahu continues assassinating Iranian nuclear scientists, what if, after this thing is done-done, he does what Meir didn't, he preemptively attacks Iran?
HARRIS: ...Wow... Like the two of us did with stuxnet...Like Obama threatened to do at the U.N....Wow...If Israel preemptively attacked Iran's nuclear facilities, what would we do, support Iran? How, by bombing Israel? Cutting off aid? Going to the UN with a security council resolution? Sanctions? Embargo?
BEN: I guess Iran must have thought of this, right? Obviously, Israel was not a party to these negotiations. For everybody's sake, the U.S., Israel, Iran, I hope the U.S. didn't give even vague assurances that it could restrain Israel. Or that Iran assumed that Israel would not attack.
HARRIS: If we are acting as guardian we should be able to give assurances...Did this deal make an Iranian-Israeli conflict more likely?
BEN: Oh my God. It does seem that Netanyahu's opposition is not confined to lobbying, it seems it extends to lobbing.
HARRIS: Let's say Netanyahu does preemptively attack, uses his own bunker-buster. Iran retaliates. Now we have a fucking war with a country of 80,000,000 against a country of 8,000,000. We have negotiated security agreements with both of them. One for sure has nukes...Israel would use 'em. You know, Dayan raised the nuclear option in '73. Israel could not win a conventional war with Iran, not
against 10-1 odds. Could not. Even if it started the war, once the war got going, it would find itself in
deep doo-doo, the U.S. would not come to Israel's aid militarily in that scenario and Israel would soon be confronted with an existential threat. It'd probably have the whole Arab world against it, too! It would use 'em. Israel would nuke Iran.
BEN: Why did Obama invest so much in this?
HARRIS: I have wondered the same thing many times. 18 months, man. The negotiations lasted 18 months. I think it is a good nuclear nonproliferation deal, better than any no nukes deal, solid inspections regime...
BEN:...But not as good as "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran"...
HARRIS: Exactly! It does not guarantee Iran will not get nukes, only military strikes can guarantee that and we took them off the table. I mean, look, JCPOA/UNSCR 2231, doesn't say "We will not bomb you" for violations, it says if you don't violate we will not sanction you further; in fact we will lift sanctions ahead of your full compliance; it says if you violate the only consequence is a "snap back" of sanctions.
BEN: But, okay, BUT: If Iran complies...
HARRIS: And I think they will...
BEN: Okay! And you think they will...Me too...So, if they comply, hasn't Obama made the world safer, more peaceful?
HARRIS: Yes, with regard to Iran! Yes! With regard to Israel? We have scared Netanyahu shitless with this. Dangerously frightened men don't act rationally. If Netanyahu decides "I'm going to preempt.," then Obama will not have made the world more peaceful.
BEN: WAIT! WHAT? The problem is Israel?!
HARRIS: I guess...I've done a 180! I am schizophrenic. FUCK!
BEN: If it's down to Israel then I'm pretty confident...Wait. No, I'm not. Not with Netanyahu. And if he preempts, then we all lose.
HARRIS: And we all will lose more than if this thing had never been agreed.
BEN: Let's back up. We've done a 180 here. Are we sure we're right about the 180, that Israel is the problem? That doesn't feel right.
HARRIS: No, you're right, it doesn't feel right. Okay. Good idea. Let's back up. What is the most likely intent of JCPOA/UNSCR 2231? To keep Iran from getting the bomb.
BEN: Yes.
HARRIS: Why is that a good idea? Let's go with "regional security."
BEN: Yes!
HARRIS: Why is that a good idea? Good for us, Israel, Iran.
BEN: If it's good for us, how good is it for us?
HARRIS: Good points, let's bracket those questions to see about the 180. This...lessens, it lessens the likelihood of Iran getting a bomb--without us knowing about it.
BEN: But not as much as "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran."
HARRIS: No. At least I don't think so. If you can accept "lessens the likelihood" then that's a good idea to enhance regional security.
BEN: Okay.
HARRIS: Now, to analyze the wisdom of our 180, we need to ask ourselves how likely it is that regional security will be lessened AND by whom.
BEN: Great! Okay, we both agreed that Iran would likely abide by the agreement. I still think it would.
HARRIS: Me, too.
BEN: But not Israel. What is the likelihood of that? That's the questions we're reconsidering...I still think it's more likely Israel would freak out and attack Iran than that Iran would violate.
HARRIS: Me, too. HOW likely?
BEN: Now we have to predict a freak-out, right? Okay, cool. I hold that it is not likely that Netanyahu will freak out, meaning, attack Iran.
HARRIS: Okay! I can live with that! Cool. Now, you're bracketed questions. How good is this agreement at enhancing regional security?
BEN: It ain't too good right now! Freaking out is a good antonym for security so Israel's security is not enhanced right now. If Iran doesn't violate, doesn't move to build a bomb and if Israel is convinced of that then the deal will enhance regional security in the long run.
HARRIS: Hey, Ben.
BEN: Hey.
HARRIS: "What's in it for us?"
BEN: (laughing). OMG! You're right, man, we're back to the first question. Well, this has been fun! We've made a lot of progress.
HARRIS: (laughing) Fuck you.
BEN: (laughing) fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou.
BEN: Your "Stop AIPAC" header and the first post--are you fucking schizophrenic?
HARRIS: Fuck you.
BEN: Fuck YOU!
HARRIS: FUCK YOU!
[fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck]
BEN: Man hug?
HARRIS: K
BEN: Have doubts about that thing?
HARRIS: ...No...Maybe...Little late to have doubts if I do, no? Thing's a lead-pipe cinch now...After I posted the Hamas thing the first thought that came into my head was "What's in it for us?" meaning the U.S.
BEN: ...Good question!
HARRIS: I tried to put myself in Obama's position in this interview. How would he answer that? How has he answered that?
BEN: Like, peace? No, the thing doesn't guarantee peace. How has he answered that? "It's in the national security interests of the U.S."? Probably something like that, right?
HARRIS: He must have and that's probably what he said but I really don't remember. I imagined "peace" too as his answer and then the second thought I had was, "This is Mr. Pragmatist, 'peace' is too poofy an answer...
BEN:...And the deal doesn't guarantee peace...
HARRIS: ...Right. I continued on that train of thought though, "peace" and played it out one step further and thought "Peace between whom?" Israel and Iran, obviously. He can say all he wants it's about peace between the U.S. and Iran but c'mon, Iran is not going to nuke the U.S. It's at this point in my thinking that I switched from "peace" as his answer to "national security" and from here on my argument converged on both. Iran does not and will not, even if it develops a nuclear arsenal, directly threaten the U.S., this thing is about Iran and Israel and then I started thinking, "But Israel is opposed to this; this thing is about Israel's national security and who the fuck are we to be saying what's in Israel's national security interests!"
BEN: FUCK OBAMA!
HARRIS: FUCK THE U.S.!
[fuckfuckfuckfuck]
BEN: I bet I know where you're going with this...
HARRIS:...You do. America has an interest in Israel's national security...
BEN:...We give them $1 billion a year, sell them weapons...
HARRIS:...It is a moral commitment in addition...
BEN:...Yes, it is.
HARRIS: The American people feel that very strongly, I feel that very strongly but, you see, that doesn't get us around the conundrum of "Who are we...?" In fact, since it's a moral commitment then it's a moral question, it's not "just" pragmatically adding up numbers, population, army size, military capabilities, and deciding "Eh, Israel's got nukes, it can protect itself," now that it's a moral question it's like protecting your child from danger, what wouldn't a parent do to protect his or her child?
BEN: Yep. And then you started thinking, "We shouldn't be doing this. We shouldn't have gotten ourselves into a position of making moral decisions for a mature foreign nation..."
HARRIS:...Right, and we always have! 'Member how Kissinger told Golda Meir, "They're not going to attack you. Don't preempt"?
BEN:...And then they did!...
HARRIS:...Right, our fucking intelligence was wrong, Israel relied on it, Meir didn't preempt, the Arabs did attack...
BEN:...And then this wasn't your grandfather's Arab coalition...
HARRIS:...No, it wasn't. And then Kissinger has to go to Nixon and say "The Third Temple is going under." We come to their aid, they surround the Egyptian army in Sinai and then HK tells Meier, "Arright, that's enough."
BEN: Right!
HARRIS: And then we get the Arab oil embargo.
BEN: So how exactly was all that in the U.S.' interests?
HARRIS: Exactly. Or Israel's! We fucked up, got Israel attacked, almost got her wiped out, then came to her aid but told her not to wipe out the Egyptian Third Army.
BEN: (laughing) We saved them both! Both sides should have been grateful to us!
HARRIS: (laughing) Right! Like the Dangerfield-Sinatra joke, "Yeah, Frank saved my life once.
Three guys were beatin' me up, Frank came over, said to them 'Arright, that's enough..'"
BEN: Ba-da-bum.
HARRIS: How was that cluster-fuck in Israel's national interest? It wasn't! How is such a dependent relationship in the interests of either the dependent or the guarantor? It's not! And that's really what this is, it's not an "alliance," we are the guardians for a now 66 year old ward! That's fucked up! I would be embarrassed. Israel would not have come into existence if George Marshall had had his way. Truman went against him! Recognized Israel's right to exist, for Jews to have a homeland. It was the right thing to do! We birthed that country. RIGHT thing to do, MORAL thing to do, got them on their feet with aid. But never weened them--and ourselves--off it! I can't believe that Israelis have tolerated this.
BEN: They haven't, under Netanyahu.
HARRIS:...No...No, I guess they haven't...Well...Netanyahu has opposed this, they spied on us in these negotiations, Pollard spied for them--You know we're releasing him?
BEN: Yeah, I know.
HARRIS: So, they have stepped out...Standing up..."Finally the Chinese nation can stand on its own two feet"...But that's not true. They haven't stood on their own two feet, Netanyahu still comes to the U.S. for aid, has been promised more aid once this Iran thing is done--That's why we finally agreed to release Pollard, surely.--So, we pay them to spy on us. When we concluded an arms sale with the Saudis, Netanyahu's response was "How are you going to recompense us for this?" Drove us mad; insulting thing to say. But he had a point! The Saudis are the worst, they should be wiped off the face of the planet! Why do we do that relationship?
BEN: A river runs through it. It's the "pragmatic" thing to do.
HARRIS: Yep. a river of black gold. We pay them to kill us.
BEN: The Israelis don't kill us.
HARRIS: No...No, they sure don't. They're good people. The American people are closer to the Jews of Israel than to any other people on earth.
BEN: And so we come back to the moral.
HARRIS: Yes...We will NOT let Israel be destroyed.
BEN: Deliberately.
HARRIS: Ah...Yes, deliberately. You know what Biden says Meir said to him once? Biden went over
there as a young senator, met with Meir, was troubled by Israel's vulnerability, is walking out with
Meir who notices him troubled and says, "Don't worry about us, Senator. We have no place else to
go."
BEN: FUCK!
HARRIS: Yeah...Fuck is right.
BEN: That doesn't get us out of the conundrum though. Makes it worse. "We will NOT (deliberately) let Israel be destroyed."
HARRIS: Right..."We"..."deliberately"...
BEN: On this, Netanyahu is saying, "Not your responsibility. Ours."
HARRIS: No...Or at least he's not only saying that. He's saying YOU, U.S. still have the responsibility to make sure we don't get destroyed and with this thing you have abdicated your parental responsibility. He is saying, he has said explicitly, that he will do what he has to do to protect his country's existential right, independent of the U.S. So, you're right he is saying "We are standing on our own two feet" but he's also saying, "Brother, can you lend me a crutch." But like Meir, just going around in circles now, but like Meir implied he is also saying explicitly "We can take care of ourselves."
BEN: What if they do? What if Netanyahu continues assassinating Iranian nuclear scientists, what if, after this thing is done-done, he does what Meir didn't, he preemptively attacks Iran?
HARRIS: ...Wow... Like the two of us did with stuxnet...Like Obama threatened to do at the U.N....Wow...If Israel preemptively attacked Iran's nuclear facilities, what would we do, support Iran? How, by bombing Israel? Cutting off aid? Going to the UN with a security council resolution? Sanctions? Embargo?
BEN: I guess Iran must have thought of this, right? Obviously, Israel was not a party to these negotiations. For everybody's sake, the U.S., Israel, Iran, I hope the U.S. didn't give even vague assurances that it could restrain Israel. Or that Iran assumed that Israel would not attack.
HARRIS: If we are acting as guardian we should be able to give assurances...Did this deal make an Iranian-Israeli conflict more likely?
BEN: Oh my God. It does seem that Netanyahu's opposition is not confined to lobbying, it seems it extends to lobbing.
HARRIS: Let's say Netanyahu does preemptively attack, uses his own bunker-buster. Iran retaliates. Now we have a fucking war with a country of 80,000,000 against a country of 8,000,000. We have negotiated security agreements with both of them. One for sure has nukes...Israel would use 'em. You know, Dayan raised the nuclear option in '73. Israel could not win a conventional war with Iran, not
against 10-1 odds. Could not. Even if it started the war, once the war got going, it would find itself in
deep doo-doo, the U.S. would not come to Israel's aid militarily in that scenario and Israel would soon be confronted with an existential threat. It'd probably have the whole Arab world against it, too! It would use 'em. Israel would nuke Iran.
BEN: Why did Obama invest so much in this?
HARRIS: I have wondered the same thing many times. 18 months, man. The negotiations lasted 18 months. I think it is a good nuclear nonproliferation deal, better than any no nukes deal, solid inspections regime...
BEN:...But not as good as "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran"...
HARRIS: Exactly! It does not guarantee Iran will not get nukes, only military strikes can guarantee that and we took them off the table. I mean, look, JCPOA/UNSCR 2231, doesn't say "We will not bomb you" for violations, it says if you don't violate we will not sanction you further; in fact we will lift sanctions ahead of your full compliance; it says if you violate the only consequence is a "snap back" of sanctions.
BEN: But, okay, BUT: If Iran complies...
HARRIS: And I think they will...
BEN: Okay! And you think they will...Me too...So, if they comply, hasn't Obama made the world safer, more peaceful?
HARRIS: Yes, with regard to Iran! Yes! With regard to Israel? We have scared Netanyahu shitless with this. Dangerously frightened men don't act rationally. If Netanyahu decides "I'm going to preempt.," then Obama will not have made the world more peaceful.
BEN: WAIT! WHAT? The problem is Israel?!
HARRIS: I guess...I've done a 180! I am schizophrenic. FUCK!
BEN: If it's down to Israel then I'm pretty confident...Wait. No, I'm not. Not with Netanyahu. And if he preempts, then we all lose.
HARRIS: And we all will lose more than if this thing had never been agreed.
BEN: Let's back up. We've done a 180 here. Are we sure we're right about the 180, that Israel is the problem? That doesn't feel right.
HARRIS: No, you're right, it doesn't feel right. Okay. Good idea. Let's back up. What is the most likely intent of JCPOA/UNSCR 2231? To keep Iran from getting the bomb.
BEN: Yes.
HARRIS: Why is that a good idea? Let's go with "regional security."
BEN: Yes!
HARRIS: Why is that a good idea? Good for us, Israel, Iran.
BEN: If it's good for us, how good is it for us?
HARRIS: Good points, let's bracket those questions to see about the 180. This...lessens, it lessens the likelihood of Iran getting a bomb--without us knowing about it.
BEN: But not as much as "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran."
HARRIS: No. At least I don't think so. If you can accept "lessens the likelihood" then that's a good idea to enhance regional security.
BEN: Okay.
HARRIS: Now, to analyze the wisdom of our 180, we need to ask ourselves how likely it is that regional security will be lessened AND by whom.
BEN: Great! Okay, we both agreed that Iran would likely abide by the agreement. I still think it would.
HARRIS: Me, too.
BEN: But not Israel. What is the likelihood of that? That's the questions we're reconsidering...I still think it's more likely Israel would freak out and attack Iran than that Iran would violate.
HARRIS: Me, too. HOW likely?
BEN: Now we have to predict a freak-out, right? Okay, cool. I hold that it is not likely that Netanyahu will freak out, meaning, attack Iran.
HARRIS: Okay! I can live with that! Cool. Now, you're bracketed questions. How good is this agreement at enhancing regional security?
BEN: It ain't too good right now! Freaking out is a good antonym for security so Israel's security is not enhanced right now. If Iran doesn't violate, doesn't move to build a bomb and if Israel is convinced of that then the deal will enhance regional security in the long run.
HARRIS: Hey, Ben.
BEN: Hey.
HARRIS: "What's in it for us?"
BEN: (laughing). OMG! You're right, man, we're back to the first question. Well, this has been fun! We've made a lot of progress.
HARRIS: (laughing) Fuck you.
BEN: (laughing) fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou.
