"Seen from down below, the dam looked like a tremendous mound of overgrown rubble... It reared up 72 feet above the valley floor...Its face was very steep and covered with loose rocks...There was hardly any indication that the thing was the work of man and no suggestion at all of what lay on the other side, except over at the far left, at the eastern end of the dam, where a spillway had been cut through the solid rock of the hillside and a wide sheet of water came crashing down over dark boulders. It was a most picturesque spot, and a favorite for picnics...And at the base of the falls a wooden bridge crossed the loud water and sent the road climbing straight to a clump of trees at the top of the dam..."
In context, "Seen from down below" refers to the members of SFFHC traveling to the lake from the rail station, not the people of Johnstown. McCullough saw the same photos I posted yesterday. All the picnickers were the Gildings not the people from Johnstown. Unless Miss Sicily snuck in.
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"The difference in elevation between the top of the dam and the city of Johnstown at the stone bridge was about 450 feet, and the distance from the dam to that point, by way of the river valley, was just under fifteen miles."
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"The difference in elevation between the top of the dam and the city of Johnstown at the stone bridge was about 450 feet, and the distance from the dam to that point, by way of the river valley, was just under fifteen miles."
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"...[A]s one man in Johnstown often told his children, it was a 'mighty body of water to be up there on the mountain.'"
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"In all the talk there would be about the lake in the years after it had vanished, the boats, perhaps more than anything else, would keep coming up over and over again."
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"But it was the sailboats that made the greatest impression. Sailboats on the mountain! It seemed almost impossible...Yet there they were: white sails moving against the dark forest across a great green mirror of a lake..."
"...[A]s one man in Johnstown often told his children, it was a 'mighty body of water to be up there on the mountain.'"
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"In all the talk there would be about the lake in the years after it had vanished, the boats, perhaps more than anything else, would keep coming up over and over again."
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"But it was the sailboats that made the greatest impression. Sailboats on the mountain! It seemed almost impossible...Yet there they were: white sails moving against the dark forest across a great green mirror of a lake..."
"All the talk," "coming up over and over again," these sections unambiguously refer to the people of Johnstown: who saw the boats, the sailboats,--"Yet there they were..."-- the "mighty body of water." Sure seems like some of the people of Johnstown could see, and saw! But he doesn't say "saw," he says "talk." "Years after" an event, people's memories can play tricks on them; years after, people can play tricks on other people. But,"Yet there they were" is a sight "impression." In that one brief section David McCullough does seem to mean that the people of Johnstown said they saw. I don't know. All I know is, except for that one part, McCullough does not say the people of Johnstown could see and did see. It's a short book, there's not enough detail on this point for the reader to be clear what the author means. After re-reading McCullough, the post below stands. And now, my doubts are reinforced. Unless I see a current photograph taken from somewhere in downtown Johnstown that shows you could see the area of the dam, I am not going to believe it.
I have major spatial issues. Just can't visualize things. The above is the best map for "spatial" people like me. Now I can see. Lake Conemaugh circled in gold (can't draw worth shit either). According to accounts of survivors reviewed by David McCullough the people in Johnstown could see the "sailboats on the mountain" used by members of the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club. There is not an image of that either, not even a current view. I have googled it every which way, "Johnstown looking toward South Fork," Johnstown looking east," South Fork from Johnstown." From what I can figure, the best view, "as the crow flies," would have been approximately along the line of the Frankstown Road--but I don't know! What if a frigging mountain was in the way? You'd have to get an unobstructed view up the valley and the crow might not fly that way. On that 1890 map, where the heck is the unobstructed view? Now I can see and I still can't see. The distance between Johnstown and the Johnstown Flood National Memorial using the Frankstown road is 10 miles. But the flood didn't fly like the crow either and the distance the flood waters took is always given as longer, 14-17 miles. Let's use 10 miles as the more suitable distance for straight-line sight. That's still 10 miles! I can't see 10 miles, I don't think. People better sighted than me, which granted is 99.44% of the population, could see the white sails from 10 miles away? I've seen and posted a number of photos of the sailboats. They were not the dang Tall Ships for goddsakes, they were pretty normal looking sailboat size.
No.
Now, maybe you could see her big ass from 10 miles away but that sail?
Get outta town.
No and no. Granted the sail in the foreground, forewater? is folded, but no. That sail, that speck, off to the left in the backwater, that's what has me concerned. Lake Conemaugh was 1 mile wide at its widest. Here we have an unobstructed view, "as the crow flies," of a sail less than 1 mile off, and you can hardly see it.
That's a kid. That's a kid's sailboat, up close. That sail's only a kid or two tall and wide. No.
That one is big. Using Sinbad there as a measuring instrument, that sail appears to be 3 Sinbads tall to the point at top and a little over 3 Sinbads wide at its widest point. So, let's say Sinbad was 5'8". That's 17.4 feet, which we'll round off to 17 1/2 feet high and, using a quarter Sinbad for the extra width, 18.85 feet wide, which we'll round off to 19 feet, wide. If that thing was in the direct sightline from J-town, which I don't see from that map, it would be visible from 10 miles away. I think. What about that speck less than a mile away?
Even bigger.
Big. Big sail. Photo taken from, 20 yards away? How big would it look 10 miles away? Not very big.
Yes!...Maybe. Did a direct sightline exist? It had to. Maybe that map is wrong. McCullough says the memory of sailboats on the mountain came up again and again in survivors accounts. One person can
be wrong, could be making it up, but "again and again?" This may be key: McCullough does not say where in Johnstown the people were who said they could see "sailboats on the mountain." I had always had in my mind that they were in downtown Johnstown, on the floodplain. Maybe they weren't. What if they were up a mountain themselves, like up a mountain where they could look over the mountains in between Johnstown and South Fork? Then they could see.
Mr. McCullough writes also that a picturesque waterfall could be seen shimmering in the sunlight from Johnstown. As I recall from the book, that would have been from the spillway.
That would be visible from 10 miles away to crows in Johnstown.
Lot of aqua there. That would be visible.
Drought? Couldn't see that. En passant, I bet some girls got their pettycoats took off up there.
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HELD: I don't know, I'm not holding. Off these images and that map, I'm not convinced. That map has me concerned. No direct sightline apparent. I may have been reading too much into McCullough but I really thought he was talking about people in downtown Johnstown, not on another mountain above Johnstown, being able to see. Obviously if you get up high enough, like if we were in a frigging airplane now, we could see. The distance also has me concerned. In the "folded sail" photo that sail in the distance is less than a mile away from the photographer, and still that sail is just a speck. The waterfall, when the "water was up," water reflects light better than sailcloth...A person on a mountain could see the waterfall when it was full and the big sails. From downtown Johnstown, no. Only Big Butt would be visible.
I have major spatial issues. Just can't visualize things. The above is the best map for "spatial" people like me. Now I can see. Lake Conemaugh circled in gold (can't draw worth shit either). According to accounts of survivors reviewed by David McCullough the people in Johnstown could see the "sailboats on the mountain" used by members of the South Fork Fishing and Hunting Club. There is not an image of that either, not even a current view. I have googled it every which way, "Johnstown looking toward South Fork," Johnstown looking east," South Fork from Johnstown." From what I can figure, the best view, "as the crow flies," would have been approximately along the line of the Frankstown Road--but I don't know! What if a frigging mountain was in the way? You'd have to get an unobstructed view up the valley and the crow might not fly that way. On that 1890 map, where the heck is the unobstructed view? Now I can see and I still can't see. The distance between Johnstown and the Johnstown Flood National Memorial using the Frankstown road is 10 miles. But the flood didn't fly like the crow either and the distance the flood waters took is always given as longer, 14-17 miles. Let's use 10 miles as the more suitable distance for straight-line sight. That's still 10 miles! I can't see 10 miles, I don't think. People better sighted than me, which granted is 99.44% of the population, could see the white sails from 10 miles away? I've seen and posted a number of photos of the sailboats. They were not the dang Tall Ships for goddsakes, they were pretty normal looking sailboat size.
No.
Now, maybe you could see her big ass from 10 miles away but that sail?
Get outta town.
No and no. Granted the sail in the foreground, forewater? is folded, but no. That sail, that speck, off to the left in the backwater, that's what has me concerned. Lake Conemaugh was 1 mile wide at its widest. Here we have an unobstructed view, "as the crow flies," of a sail less than 1 mile off, and you can hardly see it.
That's a kid. That's a kid's sailboat, up close. That sail's only a kid or two tall and wide. No.
That's the same kid, looks like the same sailboat. Sail looks taller there. No.
Adult. Adult sailboat. Two sails. Not tall enough. No.
That one is big. Using Sinbad there as a measuring instrument, that sail appears to be 3 Sinbads tall to the point at top and a little over 3 Sinbads wide at its widest point. So, let's say Sinbad was 5'8". That's 17.4 feet, which we'll round off to 17 1/2 feet high and, using a quarter Sinbad for the extra width, 18.85 feet wide, which we'll round off to 19 feet, wide. If that thing was in the direct sightline from J-town, which I don't see from that map, it would be visible from 10 miles away. I think. What about that speck less than a mile away?
Even bigger.
Big. Big sail. Photo taken from, 20 yards away? How big would it look 10 miles away? Not very big.
Yes!...Maybe. Did a direct sightline exist? It had to. Maybe that map is wrong. McCullough says the memory of sailboats on the mountain came up again and again in survivors accounts. One person can
be wrong, could be making it up, but "again and again?" This may be key: McCullough does not say where in Johnstown the people were who said they could see "sailboats on the mountain." I had always had in my mind that they were in downtown Johnstown, on the floodplain. Maybe they weren't. What if they were up a mountain themselves, like up a mountain where they could look over the mountains in between Johnstown and South Fork? Then they could see.
Mr. McCullough writes also that a picturesque waterfall could be seen shimmering in the sunlight from Johnstown. As I recall from the book, that would have been from the spillway.
That would be visible from 10 miles away to crows in Johnstown.
Lot of aqua there. That would be visible.
Drought? Couldn't see that. En passant, I bet some girls got their pettycoats took off up there.
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I think that's Miss Sicily seated at right.
